Re: lions, chimps and sticks
Rich Travsky (rtravsky@UWYO.EDU)
14 Oct 95 17:19:43 MDT
hubey@pegasus.montclair.edu (H. M. Hubey) writes:
>rtravsky@UWYO.EDU (Rich Travsky) writes:
>>>2) how many lbs can chimps curl?
>>>3) how many lbs can they press?
>
>>Irrelevant. A better measure is how hard can a chimp hit you.
>
>I assumed that measuring strength in the muscles directly involved
>in the arm is measuring "hardness of hit", and it is. How hard
>can a chimp can hit, other than being vaguely defined, is a more
>complex (and probably increasing) function of strength. Hardness
>on the other hand is measured (on the Rockwell or Brinell scale)
>and I don't think you mean either. You probably want to use
>maximum velocity generated or something like it.
>
>>You use human standards (i.e., the sport of weight lifting) that
>>don't cross species well.
>
>What you're suggesting seems impossible to measure let alone
>define.
Then why do you propose human standards a comparision? The chimp upper
body is different from a human's.
>What do you propose to measure to define "how hard a chimp can
>hit" ?
The chimp's strength has been established. Tho smaller than a human,
they can easily knock one down.
>>>I bet they're piss poor throwers. They won't stand a chance.
>>Zoo patrons have learned that primates can be quite accurate
>>in throwing things.
>
>I'd try measuring them against humans. I think they're worse.
But we're talking about defense against four legged predators,
not humans.
>And if I can't keep lions at bay throwing rocks neither
>could chimps. An animal with the intelligence of a lion or
>a hyena would have to learn fear of rocks or sticks before
>it can comprehend what threats with those objects mean. Being
>whacked with a hoof probably doesn't deter them from chasing
>the various ungulates so why should getting whacked with
>a stray rock or stick deter them. Proto-humans would have
>made ideal and quite easy pickings.
How about _many_ stray rocks, thrown by many chimps/humans? Being
hit by one is a start, being hit by more establishes the desired
response: they keep their distance. Do you jog? Had dogs confront
you? All I have to do is reach to the ground and pretend to pick up
a rock. Response: the dog stops his advance or even backs up.
Predators are no less capable of making this association.
>>The throwing of bric-brac alone is probably not sufficient in and
>>of itself. Accompanied by screaming and arm waving etc and you
>>have a much more effective display.
>
>I'd still like to test these "effective displays" somehow but
>I doubt that anyone would actually try it. I'd think that the
>results would be too obvious. Chimps would lose out in the
>plains very quickly.
In the plains? Assuming they traveled alone, instead of the
groups they are found in, then yes a chimp is at the same
disadvantage any lone animal would find itself in...
There are numerous recorded interactions of modern human/predators.
Hikers, campers, etc. Without weapons in many cases. Some are
injured, most are not. Scream, make noise, throw things.
The same can be told of early peoples and their relations with
predators. It must be effective since they survived...
Rich
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