Re: indo-european origins, cont. (was: What Are the Race Deniers Denying?)

Philip Deitiker (
Thu, 24 Oct 1996 16:55:03 GMT (Gerold Firl) wrote:

>|> This would have placed peoples of vastly different characteristics in
>|> long term association with one another.

>The majority east asian peoples of today are fairly recent immigrants,
>who have been expanding their range south and west for several
>millenia. During the time of the PIE (proto-indo-europeans) (say, 5000-
>10,000 bp) the mongoloid peoples lived in a much more restricted
>range, in the cold northeast. I look at the ainu as a more
>representative subspecies of post-ice age east asia. In the old 3-race
>model of humanity, the ainu were classified as "caucasian"; in a more
>accurate taxonomy they would be a race of their own, the last remnants
>of the post-ice age paleo-siberians.

But, in fact, I think its safe to consider a fair fraction of north
american tribes as either of this so-called group or mixtures of this
group with 'first wavers'. You must realize that there developes a
little bit of a conundrum here with what you have said. If these
asians were there back to 12KYA or greater it means that they
controlled access to the new world. Yet, most precolumbian newworlders
are considered now to be asiatics. So the question is if a
caucasion-like group had dominace of the new-world entry points then
the oldest newworlders should be of definably caucasion form.
Otherwise one has to argue.

A. That these people were later-comers to the region
supported by there similarity to inu/eskimo/siberian and the idea
that these peoples were latecomers to america.
- if this is true and the range of the IE peoples is as we are both
arguing then historically this group must have been in a place far
west of bering sea, or represent a hybrid group which appeared later
in the area.

B. That there was a geographic flip-flop in the americas when those
current asiatics entered
- not supported by the genetic drift in south america indicating
longterm genetic isolation

C. That there was an american 'co'evolution toward asiatic form upon
geographic distribution. Possible, but one would see tremendous
anatomical vs geographic variation,
- simply not seen. coevolution also cannot revert revert random
nuetral mutations which place the first immigrants (presumbably
central and south americans as being closest to asians). Second there
are enough siberian like enviroemnts here to maintina cuacasion form
at tleast in some places in precolumbian america.

Thus A is a most likely explanation. What this could means is that
there could have been tremendous population mobilization in northeast
asia after the end of the last ice age, forced by the discovery of the
americas. Originally, the common hypothisis was that the frist
immigrants came as a small group; however, there is evidence now that
population densities grew much faster than possible from a limited
number of colonizers. Thus a modern hypothesis might be that ancient
settling of the americas created a significant drain on the population
of northeast asia (which at that time could have itself been at
non-maximal levels, given available resources). This would imply that
group after group in the bering-siberia region were basically sucked
into the new world by more hospitiable climate and better food
For a period, all the intermediate forms that result from clines of
asiatics to IE caucasions are brought succesively closer to the
siberia/bering sea region, some would cross over others would occupy
vacated regions. If the artifacts are correct at some point even
IE-like caucasions reach the new world. The lack of these casucasions,
now, indicate that either they were all eliminated or they fused with
asiatic populations already here. At some point the trans-bering
migrations stopped (for a time) and populations in northeast asia
stabilized and set-up 'step' gradients. Given the probable occurance
of caucasions in northeast asia at that time, and the influx of more
southern asians one can anticipate that these two groups are going to
contribute the lion's share to the gene pool of the region. One could
also argue that the hybrid forms were more adaptive toward the region
than either IE or classical orientals and after population increases
and range competition both pushed the 'core' PIE population westward
and also pushed the eastmost siberian populations into the americas
(resulting in the later waves of asains into the region).
Thus I think if you want to call the siberian an identifyable form
one has a delimna. Is the southamerican of the same form (they were a
part of the archaic gradient of northeast asia, presumbably south
asians and PIE are the most important adjacent contact point), Or
becasue they represent transplanted piece of recent northeast asian
evolution that any topical similarities must be disregarded
considering that they represent temporally different mergences of
temporally distinct genepools of the same evolving parent populations.

>To summarize, I'm suggesting that the PIE occupied the entire eurasian
>steppe. At the end of the ice age, when changing climate and expanding
>populations in the middle east were driving the conversion to
>agriculture, the PIE were able to continue as hunter-gatherers for a
>much longer time, since the grasslands still supported large herds of
>game animals. As population pressure increased, domestication
>(possibly adopted from the civilized south) increased carrying
>capacity; the evolution of lactose-tolerance increased it still
>further. It wasn't until about 4000 bp that the PIE became too
>numerous to sustain their accustomed way of life in the steppes, but
>rather than taking up agriculture they burst out of their homeland
>upon their civilized neighbors to the south, and upon their less
>civilized neighbors to the east and west. Mobile warfare had long been
>the supreme art of the plains, and the PIE had a significant military
>advantage over everybody else. They rapidly conquered northern india,
>anatolia, and the middle east as far as egypt. Based on the chariots
>of shang china, they may have gotten there too; possibly as far as
>shantung. They probably reached jutland before shantung, since the
>corridor of plains is much more open westward. Jutland was like a
>miniature steppe

Maybe so, but if there were IE in jutland they seemed pretty
ineffective at keeping their brethren out. noting the occurance of
celtic religious practices in the region (4th to 6th century BC) and
use of the region as a staging area for scandinavian invasion (from
the 4th centruy BC). Finally, the 'when' question has to be asked.
Sure during the latter part of the 4th or 5th millineum BC this is
possible, but the real question is whether these folks were actually
the first to colonize the newly livable european regions after
deglaciation. I find it difficult to reconcile PIE european settlement
and northeast-asian track settlement simultaneously happening. One
has, at that time, an uncompetitive range of roughly 10,000 linear
miles (vs 100's of tangential miles) for a relatively small an closely
related groups. I can support an argument to the contrary by asking
the relative probability that such a group vs. range over say 4000
years would fracture frequently and to the extent most of the PIE
would be represented by mergences with groups on the periphery and
little in the form of a 'core' group would be left. This is kind of
contradictory with your idea of a solid IE/PIE group, which really
means as a group they must have maintained themselves over the last
12KY by ranging from place to place, but, in doing so, they never
spread out so much as to dilute themselves by interaction with others.

Any sub-population of IE which ranged into jutland or scandianavia are
likely to become quickly isolated from the main group and lose (as the
celts did) the core features of PIE culture.
I think there is a better explanation. That this group was actually
more east than west for the first half of the current IG period and
more west than east for the second half, and the transition from nomad
to pastoral, by chance, happened while this group was in the west
fixing their postion west. Where they immediately were prior to this
IG period is difficult to say, but I would venture to say that there
other regions of central asia as suitable to pre-IG nomads as the
ukraine. One must consider the impact of reduced territory on such
groups might migrate, the ukraine could have been the westward extreme
which waffled between PIE and western groups, but one also must
consider lands to the east as equally suitable, and considering the
putative IG range, even extensions of their territories into such
areas would be restrictive during glacial times.

[Since this reply is getting longer than uselful, I'll stop here]