New origins group

Ted Holden (
11 Feb 1995 13:00:50 -0500

The fact of and the on-line Ediacara virtual university
being the only voices on the internet for origins-related topics
represents an out-of-balance situation, or a sort of a vacuum.

We are trying to partially rectify that by the creation of an alternate
voice, beginning with a new discussion group called talk.catastrophism.

There are major indications that the Noachian flood, the destruction
by fire related in the Phaeton myth, and several other such stories
are based on actual events involving solar-system level upheavals,
although you'd never learn that from present internet resources, other
than for seeing anybody trying to defend such a claim shouted-down by
100 other people on

We can use every vote.

You vote by sending an email message to:

with the single line:

I vote YES on talk.catastrophism

The vote counting is automatic; you should receive a return email
message indicating that your vote was received.

Vote and tell all your friends to vote and tell all THEIR friends...


The CFV reads:

moderated group talk.catastrophism

Newsgroups line:
talk.catastrophism Velikovsky/Saturn Hypothesis etc. (Moderated)

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 13 February 1995.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. For voting
questions only contact For questions about the
proposed group contact Ted Holden <>.


Talk.catastrophism will function as a medium for the exchange of
information and ideas amongst scholars actively persuing investigations
in the subject areas involved, including but certainly not limited to:

1. The nature of Venus and its intense heat.
2. The nature of antediluvian megafauna, their lifestyles,
and the reasons for their development and extinction.
3. The various versions of a Saturn hypothesis, and their ramifications.
4. The great extinctions on Earth, and what brought them about.
5. Implications of catastrophism for the theory of evolution.
6. The nature of human communication and consciousness prior to the
Flood and ensuing catastrophes.

The new group would also serve as a general vehicle for disseminating
information regarding these studies to the public at large.

Moderation Policy

[1] A posting should be relevant to issues under discussion in the

[2] Flames and abuse will not be allowed in any form.

[3] A posting which ofrfers no new content to discussion already underway
will be rejected.

[4] The moderator will reject or accept submissions en toto, i.e. no
editing of content. Rejections should include a brief explanation
for the reason for rejection, time and volume of postings permitting.

[5] The moderator will not pass judgement on the soundness or correctness
of submissions.

[6] The moderator, in his role as moderator, will be impartial.

Proposed Moderator: Ev Cochrane <>


The closest thing in the normal usenet hierarchy to a group for this sort
of discussion has always been, however, is a
known quantity on the internet, and many if not most of the people whom
we would like to have contribute to the discussions would simply not be
willing to deal with Moreover, the basic charter of is for discussion of the creation/evolution debate, and not
the controversy surrounding catastrophism/uniformity.


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I vote YES on talk.catastrophism
I vote NO on talk.catastrophism

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Ev Cochrane's appeal:

From: Everett Cochrane <>
Subject: Re: CFV talk.catastrophism?

All indications are that the time is ripe for a renewed
discussion of the issues pertaining to catastrophism. As I write,
controversy is raging over the role of cometary-induced
catastrophes in the shaping of the Earth and the extinction of
various life forms (See William Glen's "The Mass Extinction
Debates: How Science Works in a Crisis," 1994). The most
recent issue of Nature features as its cover story a
report by a leading geologist of the spectacular cataclysms
which have ravaged the planet Venus in geologically recent
times (See James Head, "Venus after the flood," Nature Dec.
22/29, 1994, pp. 729ff). And the theories of Immanuel
Velikovsky continue to capture the imagination
of the American public, riding the wave, as it were, of
this recent upsurge of interest in catastrophism.

In light of these developments, there is a need for a
newsgroup which would be devoted primarily to a discussion
of catastrophism, including it's role in the history of thought
and in modern science. Talk.catastrophism is conceived as a
forum for the lively discussion and investigation of such issues.
It is hoped that it will prove to be an aid to
scholars and general readers alike, inasmuch as it will
facilitate communication and the exchange of novel ideas,
sources, and breaking news of all sorts.

In a recent article, Stephen Gould summarized the
controversy surrounding catastrophism as follows:

"When Alvarez and company first proposed their radical
hypothesis of catastrophic extinction, paleontologists almost to
a person rejected the idea with ridicule and vehemence.....Since
then, however, evidence for impact has accumulated to virtual
proof--first the initial discovery of iridium at high
concentration in strata marking the extinction (for
iridium is almost absent in indigenous sediments of the earth,
but present at normal cosmic abundances in comets and
asteroids); then the finding of shocked quartz in
the same sediments (for this unusual form of a common
mineral can be generated, so far as we know, only by high
pressures associated with impacts, and not by any internal
process known to act at or near the earth's
surface); and finally the apparent 'smoking gun' itself,
a massive crater of the right age, and up to 200 miles in
diameter, off Mexico's Yucatan peninsula." (p. 9)

"When such strong hostility greets such an interesting
theory, and continues with substantial vigor even after the
theory has been effectively validated, we must seek deeper
causes rooted in general philosophies and methodologies. No
theoretical preference has been so strong and
domination in the earth sciences as Charles Lyell's
doctrine of uniformitarianism.....This issue of uniformitarian
versus catastrophic change stands as one of the grand
questions of science, for the debate pervades so many
disciplines and bears so strongly upon some of the most
profound puzzles of our lives." (p. 9)

"But catastrophic impact theory, as Bill Glen argued
with great force, has much broader implications if it can be
established as a generality in the mechanisms of planetary
history, and not just as an explanation for a few
peculiar events, including the Cretaceous-Tertiary
extinction. For if impacts shape much that matters in geological
time, then catastrophism becomes at least coequal with a
previously dominant or nearly exclusive
uniformitarianism--and all our views on the nature of change
and causality must be revised. Moreover, these potential
revisions speak to the tensions that Freud identified as both
scary and liberating--for catastrophism supports themes that
many of us would rather not acknowledge about
chance and unpredictability in the evolution of all
lineages, including our own." (10)

If the truth be known, Gould hasn't seen anything yet.
I would urge all those interested in this controversy to vote Yes
for talk.catastrophism.


What I would hope for would be participation of a number of the
speakers from the Portland symposium. According to opponents, Velikovskian
catastrophism was laid to rest 50 years ago. Nonetheless, real pseudo-
sciences do not generally attract the attention of elite groups fifty years
after the fact.

Aside from yours truly and one or two others who might be classified as
business-people, the list of speakers at the Portland conference read
like an international academic who's-who, including:

DWARDU CARDONA- Electrical engineer, founder Canadian Society
of Interdisciplinary Studies, senior editor of AEON researcher
and prolific writer on comparative mythology having published
over 100 articles in various journals.

VICTOR CLUBE- Dean of the astrophysics department at Oxford
University, England. Dr. Clube's appearance is a welcome addition
to the speakers' list and, although not a Velikovskian scholar,
he is the co-author of two books, Cosmic Serpent and Cosmic
Winter, claiming that major cometary disasters have occurred
within historic times, devastating early civilizations. His
current work is aimed at alerting government agencies to such
perils as comet Shoemaker/Levy and encouraging governments
to mobilize the technologies necessary to identi~ potential
cometary intruders and to provide terrestrial defenses against them.

EV COCHRANE- B.S. 1979 Central College, Iowa, psychology;
M.S. 1981, Iowa State University, general graduate studies;
associate editor Krnnos; executive editor and publisher Aeon;
published numerous articles in Kronos and Aern on various
subjects from comparative mythelogy, to planetary catastrophism
and biological evolution; currently preparing a major work,
The Many Faces of Venus, for publication.

VINE DELORIA- American Indian activist, lawyer, historian,
educator, author, screen writer and consultant; B.S. 1958
Iowa State, M.S. Lutheran School of Theology, Chicago, Sacred
Theology, LLD 1970, University of Colorado; author of aCuster
Died For Your Sins, a God Is Red", Indians of The Pacific
Northwest", aThe Nations Withiff, and 10 other books on native
peoples' issues; served on the editorial boards of the American
Historical Society, the National Geographic Society, the American
Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, the Journal of
International and Comparative Law and 15 other publications;
awarded 5 honorary degrees; authored 8 special government
reports on Indian affairs and over 100 articles including
articles in Pensee and Kronos.

ROBERT DRISCOLL- Graduated Caltech, physics, Case Tech, engineering (
cum laude); member American Physical Society; articles on
physics have appeared in Hadronic Journal, Physics Essays;
author of numerous journal articles.

CHARLES GINENTHAL- Editor-in-Chief, 'The Velikovsidan; contributor
to Kronos, Aeon, Meta Research Bufletin; author: Carl Sagan
and Immanuel VelikovsIy; currently working on the book: The
Continuing Veiikovsly Affair: The Second Generation Has published
extensively on a cosmology invoking electromagnetism as a
counterforce to gravity in interplanetary and interstellar space.

ROBERT GRUBAUGH- B.S. 1949 Case Institute of Technology; M.
S. 1954 University of Illinois, Structural Dynamics, 1967-
1990-TRW Ballistic Missiles Division, San Bernardino CA, Section
Chief, Department Manager, Senior Staff Engineer- analyzed
trajectories in relation to stipulated orbital conditions;
inventor of a rntational shock measuring device, subsequently
sold to Japan and now being used by the Japanese as an earthquake
measuring device.

RICHARD HEINBERG- Immanuel Velikovslly's personal assistant
and editor of his unpublished manuscripts. Heinberg's popular
book, Memodes and Visions of Paradise, was hailed by Jean
Houston (noted authority on the great religions) as aa new
classic in the study of the world's psyche." He is also the
author of two other books and numerous articles on mythology,
anthropology, and ecology.

GUNNAR HElNSOHN- M.A. Sociology 1971, Ph.D Social Sciences
1973, Ph.D Economics 1982, Frele Universitat, Berlin; tenured
Professor, University of Bremen 1 984; author of over 1 5
books and 300 articles since 1969 in the fields of history,
economics, theory and chronology of civilization, the separation
of modern man from Neanderthal, Bronze Age Mesopotamian civilization,
Greek city state economics, origins of Jewish monotheism,
recontmctions and revisions of Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Akhaemenid
and Indus-Valley civilizations, the European withch hunts,
and the 20th century Jewish Holocaust.

EARL MILTON- B.S. 1956, MS inorganic chemistry 1958, Ph.D
gas phase spectroscopy University of Lethbridge, Montreal;
staff University of Saskatchewan, photometrics of the aurora
borealis; founding faculty member and head Centennial University
at Lethbridge where he en;lagn:I in laboratory research on
the aurora and stellar spectra and developed an all-electric
theory governing cosmic and terrestrial events; currently
completing manuscripts on astro- catastrophism including
collaboration on an Encyclopedia of Quantavolution and Catastrnphes;
editor of Recollections of a Fallen Sly, Vellkovsly and Cultural
Amnesia and co-author with Al DeGrazia of So Ia ria Binaria:
Origins and History of the Solar System

WILLIAM MULLEN- Recognized as one of the world's leading
classicists, Dr. Mullen is currently Professor of Classics
at Bard College. B.A. Harvard, Magna cum Laude, Phi Beta Kappa,
and Bowdoin prize (best undergraduate essay; Ph.D. University
of Texas at Austin; Assistant Professor of Classics, University
of California, Berkeley. Dr. Mullen is the author of Choreia;
Pindar, and Dance (Princeton University Press, 1982), and
articles on "Dithyramb" and "Choral Dancing," in the International
Encyclopedia of Dance in addition to many other articles and published works.

DONALD PATTEN- B.A. and M.A. University of Washington, geography;
author of The Biblical FIciodandthe Ice Epoch (1966), The
Long Day of Joshua andSix Other Catastrophes (1973), and Catastrophism
and the old Testament (1987). He is also a principal in the
production of two videos, 'Cataclysm From Space 2800 B.C."
and 'The Discovery of Noah's Ark"

LYNN E. ROSE- Professor of philosophy, State University of
New York at Buffalo; B.A. cum laude, Ohio State University,
1955, in ancient history and Classical Languages (major field:
Greek' Phi Beta Kappa; .M.A. in Philosophy, Ohio State University,
1957; Ph.D. in Philosophy, University of Pennsylvania. Author
of over a half-dozen books and several dozen journal articles,
including a recent ground-breaking article in the prestigious
Journal of Near Eastern Studies.

DAVID TALBOTT- Founder and publisher of Pansee magazine's
ten-issue series, "Immanuel Vellkovsly Reconsidered," which
helped to spark international interest in Velikovsl'y's work
in the mid seventies; author of The Saturn Myth (Doubleday,
1 980), and founder of the journal AEOk A Symposium on Myth
and Science. Originator of the present symposium, "Velikovsky,
Ancient Myth and Modern Astronomy.

WALLACE THORN HILL- 8.5. Melbourne University, Australia (
physics & electronics); computer systems engineer with IBM
and the Australian Government; postgraduate studies in astropysics
at Queen Mary College, University of London; papers on Venus
and the origin of chondritic meteorites have been published
in the UK Society for Interdisciplinary Studies (SIS) Review
and the Proceedings of the National Australian Convention
of Amateur Astronomers; Past committee member of SIS.

ROGER W. WESCOTT- B.A. Princeton, (linguistics, summa cum laude);
Ph.D. Princeton, linguistics 1948; Rhodes Scholar:
anthropological field work in Nigeria; director African Language
Program, Michigan State University.; Author of over 40 books
and 400 articles; listed in Who's Who; Professor of Linguistics
in the Humanities Division of the Graduate School and Professor
of Anthropology in the Social Science Division of the College
of Liberal Arts at Drew University in Madison, New Jersey.;
first holder of The Endowed Chair of Excellence in Humanities
at the University of Tennessee.; former president of the Canadian
and United States Linguistics Association, current President
of the International Society for the Comparative Study of Civilizations.

SAMUEL WINDSOR- Mechanical engineer previously employed by
Boeing and by the Department of the Navy in building nuclear
submarines; currently self-employed naval architect and marine
engineer; frequent contributor to the journals Catastrophism
and Ancient History and Aeon.

TOM VAN FLANDERN- B.S. 1962 Xavier University, Cincinatti,
Ph.d 1969 Yale, celestial mechanics; former director U.S.
Naval Observatory, Celestial Mechanics Branch; teacher of
astronomy and consultant to the Jet Propulsion Laboratory;
currently at Meta Research and the University of Maryland;
frequent contributor to The Astrophysical Journal, Tha Astronomical
Journal, Icarus and Science Magazine; article in Scientific
Amedcan -1976; author Dark Matter, Missing Planets, & New
Comets. DUANE VORHEES- Ph.D Bowling Green State University,
American Culture Studies, dissertatio~ ~A Cultural and Intellectual
Biography of Immanuel Velikovsly"; currently employed at the
University of Maryland, Asia Division, teaching American History,
literature and related courses; author of numerous articles
in Kronos and AWL

IRVING WOLFE- B.A. English and Philosophy 1956, M.A. English
1958, Ph.D Drama 1970 McGill University, Montreal; Professor
of Drama, McGill University 1978 to presenr, author of over
25 articles and 50 papers on Velikovsly and the role of global
catastrophe in the shaping of ancient and contemprary dramatic
themes, in the formation of cultural amnesia, in the creation
of world religions and other forms of collective behavior;
frequent lecturer and consultant outside the university.

MILTON ZYSMAN- B.A., LLD 1963 University of Toronto; President
of Sqring Quilt Industries, machinery manufacturing; author
Catastrophism 2000; regular contributor to SIS Newslette,;
currently completing manuscript "Unravelling Genesi?- a reconsideration
of universal creation mythology in the light of contemporary


I have to figure that if we could get half of these people onto
talk.catastrophism, which I would expect, that such a group
might be interesting.