Re: Early Amerind assimilation (Was: Re: Romans in the New World?)

R. Gaenssmantel (
13 Aug 1996 15:54:28 GMT

Hmm, me thinks someone hasn't read a proper history book - and only some
knowledge about European history.

Peter Bromfield ( wrote:
: Stella Nemeth wrote:
: > Peter Bromfield <> wrote:
: > >G Sutton wrote:
: > >> In article <>,
: > >> Peter Bromfield <> wrote:
: > >> >I don't think you are going back far enough. In order to gain more
: > >> >insight into 'race' we need to examine the history of not only the
: > >> >United States, but also that of Europe. In case you didn't know, The
: > >> >so-called Moors ruled Portugal and Spain for about 500 years, they were

If I'm not completely wrong it was slightly longer. They came across from
Morocco quite soon after Mohammads death (within a few decades) and were only
finally beaten in the 1490s (although they lost a lot of power beforehand).

: > >> >the ruling class there at that time. There is also reason for me to
: > >> >believe that these Moors also ruled other parts of Europe as well.

Err, I don't know about your reasons to believe that, but they didn't. A quick
scan over any summary of Spanish history (as found in tourist guids, e.g.
Baedecker) will reveal, that the 'Moors' were beaten back beyond the Pyrenaes
and didn't quite manage to rule nothern Spain either (thats where the
Reconquista started off from - it took a while though).

: > >> What other parts of Europe do you believe they ruled?
: > >Perhaps parts of Austria, Germany and France for a shorter period of
: > >time.

The 'Moors' were hoping to bring Islam to the rest of Europe, but the were
beaten by the French just east of the Pyrenaes (southern part).

: > When?
: During the time of the Moors (the 6th to the 11th century).

Los reyos catholicos beat the 'Moors' - read the last ruler - out of Granada in
1492 (or 1494?), finishing off the reconquista.

: > >> >These Moors WERE BLACK PEOPLE.

No, the 'Moors' were Arabs spreading Islam, as the Prophet had told them to do.
It was only in subsequent centuries that in central Europe the word 'moor' get
the meaning of 'black'. A trip through southern Spain will reveal, that
'moorish' architecture was essentially Arab (with a few European elements mixed
in), 'moorish' culture was Arabic/muslim, and the 'Moors' were Arabs. I can't
remember the Spanish word for 'Moor', but I believe it's written with 'au'
instead of 'oo'. In German you definitely distinguish the 'Mauren' as Arab
rulers of souther Spain (Al-andalus) and the 'Mooren' which is derived from the
other word, but means black people (with a diffamatory connotation).

: > >> These Moors were a Muslim army from North Africa, composed of Arabs, Berbers
: > >> and Syrians, all of which are Caucasoids and not Negroids.

Actually, G Sutton is right, and (as mentioned above) any brief history of
Spain would tell you the ethnic make-up of the 'Moors'.

: > >Nonsense.
: > Not to those of us who use our eyes.

: If you examine older historical documents, they were clearly described
: as black people. Older European Literature also descibes the Moors as
: being black, why would they lie about the color of the Moors. If you
: want to believe they were white, fine but this is historically
: incorrect.

Arabs aren't quite black, but not white either. For any nothern European who
had heard about black people (but never seen any) they must have looked black -
since they thought these were the people they had heard about. Have you ever
seen the sky black with birds? Well, if you took a photo and analysed it you'de
probably find not more than 1% was black, but that's the way it's told and
knowone would accuse the author of that statemenct of lying.

: > >> Of the medieval
: > >> Caliphate of Cordova, it has been written, "most of the Caliphs were
: > >> ginger-haired with blue eyes" (Moorish Spain, p.24).

: What is the date of this reference? This does not say they were all
: white. Also, it says "most of the Caliphs were fairer". This is a
: comparative statement meaning that some of them were darker.

: > >This is absolutely absurd, it is common knowledge that the moors were
: > >black.

That's not common knowledge, that's just the common usage of the word. As I
write before common knowledge states otherwise, it's just that the meaning of
the word 'moor' shifted (whereas the meaning of 'the Moors' has stayed the

: > Common knowledge is wrong then.

: This is the last time I will respond to your ignorance.

Maybe you should rather have a quick scan through a historical summary of
moorish Spain (Al-andalus).

: > >> In fact Arabs have
: > >> always considered themselves distinct from Negroids and even in >present-day
: > >> Iraq a citizen can obtain a legal judgment against a person falsely >accusing
: > >> him of Negro ancestry (Caravan, p.161).
: >
: > >This is about the most rediculous thing I have ever heard. It sounds
: > >like something from the slave days in the U.S. If Iraq actually does
: > >this, then the Iraqi government and law makers are the dumbest people on
: > >the planet. I thought the U.S. had stupid policies, this takes the cake.
: > >I'd like to see a black Iraqi come over here and try to convince me that
: > >he is white, when African-Americans look less 'negroid' than he does. I
: > >know they put oil in their hair and crap, but they can't fool us.

What's this got to do with the 'Moors'? Also, maybe we should consider, that
there are other ethnic groups than just black and white. If you lineup an
European, ad Arab, and an African, you'll clearly find that the Arabs features
are closer to the European than the African - despite his skin being bronze,
but then again the Greeks are slightly darker than the English too).

: > Why is it important for you that an Iraqi believe s/he is black when
: > they aren't?

: It isn't important, I just find this hard to believe. For your
: information, some of the most highly regarded and respected families in
: The Middle East have blacks in them. The family tree of Muhammad (the
: profit of Islam) has blacks in it, and when I say black I mean coal
Of course Islam did prifit ot the Prophet.

: black. Indeed, some of the greatist scholars in Islam are descended from
: Ethiopian slaves.

The thing about Mohammad I don't quite buy.

: > >> >It was an honor for white people to marry Moors at that time. I
> >believe some

The Arabs were a very tolerant and enlightened people at the time. As long as
you were muslim, there was no reason why one shouldn't marry - I'm not sure how
common marriage between different faiths were, but the catholic church would
have definitely kicked you out if you did.

: > >> >where near the 11th century, the Moors were conquered by Germanic
people from

No, the nothern Spanish kings of Leon started the reconquista from the north
(I'm not sure when the reconquista started, but it took quite a while). The
defeat by the French was a bit of a trigger though. One important name to start
a searchin a lexika/enzyclopedia on would be El-sid (or El-cid), a hero of the
reconquista (or Al-andalus - the Arabic name for the Arab occupied part of
Spain- or Andalisia the present day Spanish province which derives it's name
from Al-andalus).

There were no Germanic people involved in the reconquista.

: > >> >the East. It stands to reason that ALL OF THE MOORS WERE NOT KILLED
OFF, many

That is true, some others fled to Morocco.

: > >> >converted to Christianity and became allies with the Germanic
invaders, some

Since there were no Germanic invadres that is not quite true. Although I would
assume that some Arabs converted - face with baptism or sword. The declared aim
of the reconquista was to make Spain catholic again. Hence the pope officially
gave the royal couple (Isabella and ??) who finished off the reconquista (by
taking Granada [more prcicely the Alhambra in Granada] ) the byname 'the
catholic kings' (los reyos catholicos).

: > >> >became Scientists, political leaders, and were accepted into German,

It is true that the Arabs were the more advanced culture in the middle ages - a
lot of medical books written bu the Arabs during their time in Al-andalus were
standard works for medical students up to the beginning of this century. They
performed operations (including eye operations - as can be seen in the museum
in Cordoba) and were generally quite advanced in science, whereas Europe was
stuck in a static scholastic view of the world.

: > >> >Dutch, and Polish noble families. So during a certain time period
there WERE

You mean black people like Frederick the Great? Or Queen Victoria of Britain?
Or Lenin, Reagan, ... ?

: > >> Again you have made the mistake of assuming the Moors were Negroids.

No, and there's ample proof otherwise and apart from your 'common knowledge'
know proof to support you 'thesis'. Although it would be nice if you could
share the source of your common knowledge.

: > No. Sorry. You are wrong. Shouting isn't going to make you right.

: Go to a good library and visit the geneality section. Ask for the oldest
: coats of arms of European families that they have (you might have to do
: an inter-library loan). Look for people with the last name Moor and also
: look for were the people of Moorish ancestry are.

Maybe you are right and there are some people called Moor, but that doesn't
necessaryly allow the conclusion that they were 'Moors'. There are a lot of
things that come into the names. Or would you claim everyone of the name Holmes
had gymnasts as their medieval ancestors - just because the bars are called
'Holm' in German?


: -Peter
: > Stella Nemeth
: >