Re: Is English a creole? (was: Indo-European Studies)

Je Goolsby (
Sat, 12 Aug 1995 02:51:38 -0800

In article <>, (Glynis Baguley) wrote:

> In article <407i7a$> Alwyn Thomas
<> writes:
> > (Glynis Baguley) wrote:
> > >. Were all the lowly Normans promptly ennobled, and the English
> > >aristocrats forced to perform menial tasks for the conquerors? It's
> > >very difficult to imagine that there was this neat divide between posh
> > >ruling Normans and vulgar down-trodden English.
> >
> >
> > I don't quite see why you have so much difficulty with this idea. The
> > Norman duke comes from France with his retinue, which contains
> > aristocrats as well as humbler folk like cooks and grooms and other
> > servants. Because of their association with the ruling class, even the
> > most menial of these feel superior to the indigenous English and do not
> > deign to learn their language - just as white people are used to behaving
> > towards Aboriginals in Australia.
> Hardly a valid analogy, I think. William claimed to be the legitimate
> successor of Edward the Confessor. The Normans and English must have
> been culturally quite close. William wanted to rule England, not
> colonise it. The obvious thing to do would be to form marriage
> alliances.
> I can believe that a Norman groom felt he was superior to an English
> groom, but not that he felt superior to an English aristocrat, or that
> he was so snooty he refused to have anything to do with English people

The analogy is fine. We are talking about a wave of arrogance that started
with the conquest of Gaul and pushed westward making the Welch foreigners
in their own land, enslaving or pushing people further and further
westward across the Atlantic and wiping out a whole continent of people in

It has continued in my life time as the "Sun Never Sets over the British
Empire" but you don't take wives, you take concubines but you don't bring
them home. The United States has assumed the role now in the westward
expansion, pushing west across the Pacific. But here we meet a
civilization that has the ability to stand up to our arrogance.

The Spanish comingled but the British killed and left bastards.

There has been a pompous culture in England for a long time and it has a
grip on the United States right now.

No, we don't intermarry without being shamed and bannished.

How scientific is a linguistic reference that contains no censored words?