Re: Morgan Tears 2.

J. Moore (
Tue, 31 Oct 95 11:07:00 -0500

El> William Frey reported that some dogs when parted from their owners, are
El> said (by the said owners) to have wept. But the owners were the only
El> witnesses and the phenomenon could not be reproduced in the laboratory.
El> Since the owners failed to give page numbers I am sure JMD will be the
El> first to dismiss their claims out of hand.

A) There was no attempt to "reproduce this in the laboratory", and
in fact I mentioned these reports in my first post on tears, which
you have apparently not read (unless you're just delibrately
misrepresenting it here).
B) There were also other anecdotal reports of other mammals
reported by Frey, which I also listed in my post (you should've
read it; it was quite thorough). I'll repost the part about that

JM> Finally, since his earlier work was written about in *Psychology
JM> Today*, Frey has gotten many anecdotal reports about pets or other
JM> animals shedding tears. These animals include dogs, cats, cows,
JM> pigs, lambs, horse, and a kangaroo.
JM> Summary:
JM> So we can see that there is every bit as much, and as little,
JM> evidence for non-aquatic animals shedding emotional tears as there
JM> is for aquatic animals. This is contrary to the claims we have
JM> heard repeatedly in this newsgroup, and contrary to Morgan's
JM> claims in print. We also see still more evidence of Morgan's style,
JM> deliberately burying contrary evidence that is in a book which she
JM> cites. (Unless we are to believe that when she read Frey's book,
JM> she didn't read the chapter entitled "Do Animals Shed Emotional
JM> Tears?" -- does *anyone* believe that's likely?)

So, is it true that when you had and cited Frey's book, you
*didn't* read the chapter entitled "Do Animals Shed Emotional
Tears?"? You evidently didn't read it, or my post, or you
couldn't say the following:

El> I know of no statement from a scientist, with the exception of the
El> Fossey remark quoted earlier, that describes a land
El> animal, other than man and the elephant, weeping.

>From my post again:
JM> Then Frey continues with reports of other animals shedding tears:
JM> dogs and wolves (Cecil Reynolds 1925); seal (Ronald M. Lockley
JM> 1966 *Grey Seal, Common Seal*); sea otter (Georg W. Stellar);
JM> lab rats (red tears from Harderian glands [the same types of glands
JM> that elephants have]) (John E. Harkness and Marcella D. Ridgeway);
JM> and gorilla (Dian Fossey 1983 *Gorillas in the Mist*).
JM> Note that already we see a mix of aquatic and non-aquatic animals
JM> mentioned; this will be a repeating theme, as you'll see. Another
JM> recurring theme, and the reason Frey ultimately does not accept
JM> these reports as documented, is that none of these reports, indeed
JM> none of the "pro-tears" reports, have any means of determining
JM> that these tears are due to emotion rather than stress or
JM> irritation. In any event, this already destroys the AAT claim
JM> that only aquatic animals have been reported shedding emotional
JM> tears (and it should be noted that this book was cited by Morgan,
JM> who somehow managed to skip all the reports of non-aquatic
JM> animals).

So which is it: you either didn't read my post and didn't read the
"Do Animals Shed Emotional Tears?" chapter in Frey's book; OR you
did read one or the other and have deliberately misrepresented it
by eliminating the relevant information which didn't support your
claims. Which is it?

El> More to come....
El> Elaine

On that note, James Borrett has mentioned how helpful you are in
supplying your references, but there must be a computer problem
between your system and mine, because I have yet to receive a
single one. I would like the references for any and all of the
statements you make in all your books. Send 'em on over. I'm
(still) waiting for the first installment.

Jim Moore (

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