Re: Culture of Science?

Joel and Lynn Gazis-Sax (gazissax@best.com)
Wed, 14 Aug 1996 23:55:03 -0800

Oh yawn. A troller. Ho hum.

Stephen Barnard wrote:
>
> Joel and Lynn Gazis-Sax wrote:
> >
> > alt.pagan has been removed from the newsgroup list at the request of
> > some of the members of that group.
> >
> > Stephen Barnard wrote:
> > >
> > > Joel and Lynn Gazis-Sax wrote:
> > > >
> > > > means to be human. Perhaps one reason why scientists find the so-called
> > > > "Territorial Imperative" so compelling is that it resembles their
> > > > culture very closely.
> > >
> > > I believe the "Territorial Imperative" is a phrase coined by Edward
> > > Albey, who wasn't a scientist at all. He was a novelist who dabbled in
> > > pop science. His writings aren't taken seriously by scientists, to say
> > > the least. You seem to take them seriously, however.
> >
> > Do I? Eric? Mary Beth? Do I really take the "Territorial Imperative"
> > seriously? I guess that makes me a sociobiologist! Gosh, I thought
> > it was only Gerold and Bryant who believed in such things!
> >
>
> You must take it seriously if I'm to believe what you wrote. Do you take fascism
> seriously? Do you take racism seriously? Note that I'm not asking you whether
> you believe in these things.
>
> > >
> > > You are just about the most pathological nut-case of this particular
> > > type that I've even run across.
> > >
> >
> > This time Steve, you are now being accurately accused by me of failing
> > to understand my real meaning. Let's do a basic lesson in reading com-
> > prehension together and you will see what I mean.
> >
> > To do this, however, we are going to have to go beyond pulling a single
> > sentence out of context. Let's go line by line from my original post:
> >
> > >Nice observation, Bill. I think a study of the Culture of Science could
> > >be very interesting and lead us to some new understandings of what it
> > >means to be human. Perhaps one reason why scientists find the so-called
> > >"Territorial Imperative" so compelling is that it resembles their
> > >culture very closely.
> >
> > Did I say that I believed this? Hmmmm. I look up and down and see no
> > admission on my part that I believe in this hokum here. You sure put
> > a lot of meaning in that isn't there.
>
> I never wrote that you "believe" in the territorial imperative. That would be
> absurd because you obviously don't. I wrote that you seem to take Ardrey's
> writings (he coined the term) seriously. Big difference. Here's an example. I
> don't believe in Christian theology, but I take it seriously because I know that a
> great many intelligent and informed people *do* believe in it.
>
> >
> > >Observe how I got flamed by the Wonder from Washington
> > >well beyond what I had actually said.
> >
> > A little sarcasm here, no?
> >
>
> More than sarcasm. Vicious sarcasm.
>
> > >Her attacks, by her own admission,
> > >were certainly not /rationally/ motivated. And yet they bear a peculiar
> > >similarity to remarks I have seen made time and time again when a member
> > >of the Scientific Establishment, particularly in that they both claim to
> > >be "neutral" (or as Angeline put it, "not personal") and yet their utterances
> > >are full of venom!
> >
> > The literary device being employed here is "irony". Did you learn about that
> > in school?
>
> A successful use of irony requires a degree of subtlety, which you lack.
>
> >
> > >From where did this culture spring? Here are a few of my hypotheses:
> >
> > Hypothesis = an idea to be tested and hastilly tossed out if decent
> > evidence against it can be marshalled. This is just for some other
> > stupid people out there.
> >
> > >* Class. Do Scientists come overwhelming from the Upper Middle and Upper
> > >Classes? Again, this could explain many of the mythological baggage which
> > >many scientists bear about the natures of their own intellects. Rather than
> > >considering the superior value of the education and family upbringing they
> > >had, they look hopefully to their own genes.
> > >* Protestantism. (Yep, I'll blame this bugaboo just for the sake of
> > >theoretical completeness!)
> >
> > Again, note the use of the humorous term "bugaboo".
>
> Hilarious. You'd better stop or I'm liable to hurt myself. When someone feels
> that they have to point out when they are being humorous then they aren't.
>
> >
> > >I don't give Protestantism the credit for
> > >the Scientific Method, only for the the emotional baggage and superiority
> > >complex that afflicts a fair number of scientists, at least the vocal
> > >ones. Genetic explanations of intelligence sound a lot like good
> > >old Calvinist predestination if you think about it.
> >
> > Again, note the sarcastic tone.
> >
> > >Perhaps you all have others.
> >
> > And as yet unaccepted invitation.
> >
> > >The point I would make about these things
> > >is that they /are not/ Scientific Method. But they sure as hell sneak
> > >in and wreak their havoc often enough for us to be aware of them.
> >
> > Very much in the tradition of Mark Twain. Ever read any of his stuff
> > there, Steve?
>
> Mark Twain wouldn't have given you the time of day. He hated pomposity.
>
> >
> > Periodically there are discussions about the necessity of emoticons
> > in newsgroup postings. The argument against them is that a good writer
> > can communicate his meaning adequately. But the problem is that a good
> > writer also needs a good reader.
>
> Before you break your arm patting yourself on the back, you should realize that
> your writing sucks.
>
> >
> > Some, like Steve, need training wheels.
> >
>
> Maybe I can borrow your walker, instead.
>
> > Regards,
> >
> > Joel
> >
> > --
> > ___ ___
> > /\ _|_ /\ Joel and Lynn NAzis-SEx
> > / /\_|_/\ \ gazissax@best.com
> > / / /\|/\ \ \ http://www.best.com/~gazissax/
> > ----------o----------------------------------------------------------
> > \ \ \/|\/ / / "If we try to flee from our human condition into
> > \ \/_|_\/ / the computer, we only meet ourselves there."
> > \/__|__\/ William Barrett
>
> Steve Barnard

-- 

        ___ ___ 

       /\ _|_ /\      Joel and Lynn GAzis-SAx

      / /\_|_/\ \     gazissax@best.com

     / / /\|/\ \ \    http://www.best.com/~gazissax/

 ----------o----------------------------------------------------------

     \ \ \/|\/ / /    "If we try to flee from our human condition into  

      \ \/_|_\/ /     the computer, we only meet ourselves there."

       \/__|__\/                        William Barrett