Re: The Origin of The Cravat (Was: Are Ties Phallocarps?)

Gerold Firl (
20 Nov 1995 13:23:51 -0800

In article <48je2o$> (Joel and Lynn GAzis-SAx) writes:

>Gerold ( said something else:

>>Here is a hypothesis: the rise of the cravat is linked to the decline of
>>the codpiece.

>I will grant that codpieces came and went before ties. But I *strongly
>suspect* that there was a one hundred to two hundred year gap before the one
>fell out of fashion and the other supplanted it.

Two suggestions: first, the gap may not be quite as large as you suspect;
breughal painted codpieces on dutch peasants in the mid-1500's, and I see
to recall some mention of them in shakespeare, in the late 1500's. Another
poster was kind enough to recount for us the history of the hravat, where
the dates of the 30 years war (1618-1648) were put-forward as the time when
the tie was introduced to western fashion.

And second, consider the sword as fashion-statement; it may bridge the gap
between codpiece and necktie.

>Thus I put this hypothesis in the same class as the assertation by some
>Afro-centric historians who claim that Aristotle stole all his ideas from the
>Library of Alexandria. (Aristotle died before the Library was even built --
>by Greeks!)

The analogy has some problems ...

Disclaimer claims dat de claims claimed in dis are de claims of meself,
me, and me alone, so sue us god. I won't tell Bill & Dave if you won't.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=---- Gerold Firl @ ..hplabs!hp-sdd!geroldf