Re: trans-Pacific contacts

Yuri Kuchinsky (
27 Aug 1996 17:12:40 GMT

Jeffrey L Baker ( wrote:
: On 14 Aug 1996, Randal Allison wrote:

: > >"First and foremost there was casting by the lost-wax (_cire perdue_)
: > >method, appearing in Colima adn Colombia from -100 onwards, then in full
: > >flower by +1200 in Peru. This was characteristic also of China..."
: > >(Needham, TRANS-PACIFIC ECHOES, p. 58)

: > O.K. Both Needham and Heine-Geldern give examples of similar
metaluurgical : > processes, as do any number of researchers. But, have
any done any testing : > of the artifacts to see if they share a common
source of materials? That : > is, if a group with metal-working
capabilities did cross the Pacific and : > land in the Americas, then it
is likely that some of their metal work came : > with them. Just because
there are some "similarities" in technique doesn't : > mean that they are
related to a common source. Have there been any tests : > to see if the
metals content of any of these articles matches similar : > articles from
the other side of the Pacific?

: Randall raises a good point here.

What point?

How can the Old World and the New World artifacts "share a common source
of materials"? This is truly beyond me that anyone can consider this

If the hypothetical sailors brought any metal artifacts with them, not
many would have arrived to the New World, and we haven't found them yet
(not surprisingly). And they would have had no reason at all to melt and
reforge them. Right?

Is anyone out there about to claim that those sailors were going to bring
raw ores with them on their tiny ships? Really!

Some of the arguments some of you people use really make me wonder...

: This had not been done until quite
: recently. This recent work is what I was referring to (e.g. Dorothy Hosler,
: 1994, The Sounds and Colors of Power, MIT Press). She notes that South
: America had TWO distinct metallurgic traditions (one involving lost-wax
: casting, and one which did not).

Well, _before_ you claimed that no technologies were similar... I can see
some progress...

: Both of these traditions combined to
: spawn a third native precolumbian tradition in the new world, that of
: west mexico. She states very clearly (p. 17) these precolumbian
: metallurgic traditions "are not related to other world metallurgies"

But YOU JUST SAID they used lost-wax casting. Which part of this do you
(or she) misunderstand?

: This is based upon a much more thorough analysis of metallurgy than Needham
: had available to him.

I really doubt it.

The ability of some academics to claim that red is blue, and that green
is brown, stopped to amaze me quite some time ago...



#% Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto %#
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Students achieving Oneness will move on to Twoness === W. Allen