Re: Early Amerind assimilation (Was: Re: Romans in the New World?)

Peter Bromfield ((no email))
Tue, 13 Aug 1996 20:47:21 GMT (R. Gaenssmantel) wrote:
>Hmm, me thinks someone hasn't read a proper history book - and only some
>knowledge about European history.
>Peter Bromfield ( wrote:
>: Stella Nemeth wrote:
>: > Peter Bromfield <> wrote:
>: > >G Sutton wrote:
>: > >> In article <>,
>: > >> Peter Bromfield <> wrote:
>: > >> >I don't think you are going back far enough. In order to gain more
>: > >> >insight into 'race' we need to examine the history of not only the
>: > >> >United States, but also that of Europe. In case you didn't know, The
>: > >> >so-called Moors ruled Portugal and Spain for about 500 years, they were
>If I'm not completely wrong it was slightly longer. They came across from
>Morocco quite soon after Mohammads death (within a few decades) and were only
>finally beaten in the 1490s (although they lost a lot of power beforehand).
>: > >> >the ruling class there at that time. There is also reason for me to
>: > >> >believe that these Moors also ruled other parts of Europe as well.
>Err, I don't know about your reasons to believe that, but they didn't. A quick
>scan over any summary of Spanish history (as found in tourist guids, e.g.
>Baedecker) will reveal, that the 'Moors' were beaten back beyond the Pyrenaes
>and didn't quite manage to rule nothern Spain either (thats where the
>Reconquista started off from - it took a while though).
>: > >> What other parts of Europe do you believe they ruled?
>: > >Perhaps parts of Austria, Germany and France for a shorter period of
>: > >time.
>The 'Moors' were hoping to bring Islam to the rest of Europe, but the were
>beaten by the French just east of the Pyrenaes (southern part).
>: > When?
>: During the time of the Moors (the 6th to the 11th century).
>Los reyos catholicos beat the 'Moors' - read the last ruler - out of Granada in
>1492 (or 1494?), finishing off the reconquista.
>: > >> >These Moors WERE BLACK PEOPLE.
>No, the 'Moors' were Arabs spreading Islam, as the Prophet had told them to do.
>It was only in subsequent centuries that in central Europe the word 'moor' get
>the meaning of 'black'. A trip through southern Spain will reveal, that
>'moorish' architecture was essentially Arab (with a few European elements mixed
>in), 'moorish' culture was Arabic/muslim, and the 'Moors' were Arabs. I can't
>remember the Spanish word for 'Moor', but I believe it's written with 'au'
>instead of 'oo'. In German you definitely distinguish the 'Mauren' as Arab
>rulers of souther Spain (Al-andalus) and the 'Mooren' which is derived from the
>other word, but means black people (with a diffamatory connotation).
>: > >> These Moors were a Muslim army from North Africa, composed of Arabs, Berbers
>: > >> and Syrians, all of which are Caucasoids and not Negroids.
>Actually, G Sutton is right, and (as mentioned above) any brief history of
>Spain would tell you the ethnic make-up of the 'Moors'.

You must understand that the system of classifying people as 'caucasian' or
'negro' is based on white dominance or superiority. Consider this: People from
the Caucasious Mountain area are classified as 'caucasians', yet genetically
they have more in common with 'negros'. The white people of northern
Scandinavia are farther from being descended from people in the Caucasius
Mountains than are the Ethiopians and Somailis. Medeterraneans are classified
as 'white', yet genetically they are closer to the African 'Negros' than the
people from the far reaches of northern Scandinavia (who are REALLY white).

>: > >Nonsense.
>: > Not to those of us who use our eyes.
>: If you examine older historical documents, they were clearly described
>: as black people. Older European Literature also descibes the Moors as
>: being black, why would they lie about the color of the Moors. If you
>: want to believe they were white, fine but this is historically
>: incorrect.
>Arabs aren't quite black, but not white either.

I've heard this argument zillions of times, yet i've known several Arabs from
Saudi Arabia, and the gulf area who put down 'white' on their forms yet they
look no different from most of the people you would see walking down 125th st.
in Harlem New York.

> For any nothern European who
>had heard about black people (but never seen any) they must have looked black -
>since they thought these were the people they had heard about. Have you ever
>seen the sky black with birds? Well, if you took a photo and analysed it you'de
>probably find not more than 1% was black, but that's the way it's told and
>knowone would accuse the author of that statemenct of lying.
>: > >> Of the medieval
>: > >> Caliphate of Cordova, it has been written, "most of the Caliphs were
>: > >> ginger-haired with blue eyes" (Moorish Spain, p.24).
>: What is the date of this reference? This does not say they were all
>: white. Also, it says "most of the Caliphs were fairer". This is a
>: comparative statement meaning that some of them were darker.
>: > >This is absolutely absurd, it is common knowledge that the moors were
>: > >black.
>That's not common knowledge, that's just the common usage of the word. As I
>write before common knowledge states otherwise, it's just that the meaning of
>the word 'moor' shifted (whereas the meaning of 'the Moors' has stayed the
>: > Common knowledge is wrong then.
>: This is the last time I will respond to your ignorance.
>Maybe you should rather have a quick scan through a historical summary of
>moorish Spain (Al-andalus).
>: > >> In fact Arabs have
>: > >> always considered themselves distinct from Negroids and even in >present-day
>: > >> Iraq a citizen can obtain a legal judgment against a person falsely >accusing
>: > >> him of Negro ancestry (Caravan, p.161).
>: >
>: > >This is about the most rediculous thing I have ever heard. It sounds
>: > >like something from the slave days in the U.S. If Iraq actually does
>: > >this, then the Iraqi government and law makers are the dumbest people on
>: > >the planet. I thought the U.S. had stupid policies, this takes the cake.
>: > >I'd like to see a black Iraqi come over here and try to convince me that
>: > >he is white, when African-Americans look less 'negroid' than he does. I
>: > >know they put oil in their hair and crap, but they can't fool us.
>What's this got to do with the 'Moors'? Also, maybe we should consider, that
>there are other ethnic groups than just black and white. If you lineup an
>European, ad Arab, and an African, you'll clearly find that the Arabs features
>are closer to the European than the African

For people far moved away from reality this is true. In Hollywood they make
white characters play the parts of Arabs they have them wear a stupid-looking
long noses and die their skin light-brown. If you actually visited Saudi
Arabia, and other gulf countries you would discover that many of these people
look like African-Americans. If you watch T.V., they like to feed into white
supremacy, so ofcourse they make them look white.

>- despite his skin being bronze,
>but then again the Greeks are slightly darker than the English too).

Do you think an Arab or a Greek would be welcome at a Ku Klux Klan meeting? If
not then why should we call them 'white' or 'caucasian'?

>: > Why is it important for you that an Iraqi believe s/he is black when
>: > they aren't?
>: It isn't important, I just find this hard to believe. For your
>: information, some of the most highly regarded and respected families in
>: The Middle East have blacks in them. The family tree of Muhammad (the
>: prophet of Islam) has blacks in it, and when I say black I mean coal
> ^^^^^^
>Of course Islam did prifit ot the Prophet.
>: black. Indeed, some of the greatist scholars in Islam are descended from
>: Ethiopian slaves.
>The thing about Mohammad I don't quite buy.

Muhammad's uncle, MuTalib was of Habashi (Ethiopian) origin. An Islamic scholar
from Saudia Arabia gave me this information and he said it can be easily backed
up from Arabic Historical literature. In this day and age, it has been verified
that some of the direct descendants of the profit Muhammad are Somali and
Ethiopian. All you have to do if you don't believe me is go to an Islamic
scholar (someone with a Ph.D is Islamic law) and ask him if Muhammad has black
people in his family. Muhammad was spoken of being light-skinned with hair that
was neither straight nor curly. What kind of people do you see with hair that
is not straight or curly?

Thanks for the info. on the Moors.